From the conversation, with time codes in square brackets (44 MB mp3)
[17:08] The question then, it seems to me, is, do you just join in then, with kicking Churchill because he’s being grotesquely misused by Johnson or Trump, and say, Well, this is the time to kick him when he’s down; or should democrats be saying, Well, actually what Churchill tells us is that history is a complicated thing. [17:31] You know, that actually identity is complicated, that our sense of our relationships with the past has to be one that’s capable of including contradiction.
